On this episode of the Mobile Home Park Lawyer Podcast, Ferd speaks to Frank Bowman about navigating state and local regulations in Illinois, as well as some other places too. Frank gives you all you need to know and what to look out for when developing or installing homes from a regulation standpoint and some very useful information to know before you start.
HIGHLIGHTS:
0:00 – Intro and background to Frank Bowman
4:30 – Ferd talks about the difficulty in selling parks in Illinois due to the tax laws and asks Frank if he sees people complaining about that
7:49 – Frank and Ferd talks about the difficulty in evicting people, even for the most serious of offences
9:19 – Frank explains what makes Illinois better to buy in and what makes it worse
11:46 – Frank is working with some mayors in city councils on is discriminatory zoning practices
13:08 – Frank go 2 brand new communities through county planning commission with unanimous approvals
14:21 – Ferd asks what role he plays in the regulatory game and what tips and tricks should people look out for with regulations
19:15 – Frosting soil is a big issue in Illinois as Ferd and Frank discuss the issues of soil and the settlement of manufactured homes on the soil continuing from the previous discussion
22:32 – It’s hard to get young people to work in jobs with such physical labour as home installation
24:40 – Abandoned homes is always an issue too, as Frank explains what he’s going to talk about in his upcoming conference
26:49 – Ferd went through 20 contractors on one development
29:32 – Visiting IMHA.org will give you all the information you need to learn more
TRANSCRIPTION:
This is the mobile home park lawyer podcast with Ferd Niemann. If you’re looking to generate wealth and passive income in the lucrative world of mobile home parks, you’re in the right place.
You’ll discover solutions to the common legal, and operational pitfalls and how to optimize parks to maximize income. Your host is in the trenches. He’s a real estate attorney, financial analyst and mobile home park investor, and operator. Now let’s turn it over to Ferd Niemann.
Ferd Niemann: Welcome back mobile home park nation, Ferd Niemann here again with another episode of the mobile home park lawyer podcast, got an exciting guest today. He’s a well-versed at all kinds of mobile home parks laws, regulations, processes. He’s the head of the Illinois MHA. I’ve known him over the phone for years and I met him recently in person at another conference. So it was nice to connect. Please help me welcome my guests, Frank Bowman. Frank, welcome to the show, man.
Frank Bowman: Thanks Ferd, thanks for having me on today. I appreciate it.
Ferd Niemann: Yeah, well you’ve been kind enough to share your wisdom with me in the past, and I know with lots of other members of your organization there, and as you know you worked in government for five years and you guys are kind of quasi government, but I always joke, you know, you call somebody at the government and see if they answer their phone or not. And you’re one of those guys I call you, you answer your phone and you’re working, right. I call you at four o’clock on a Friday, you’re working. A lot of guys, you call at 10:00 AM on a Friday and their assistants like, I think you stepped out how’s Monday? It is like, you’re not one of those guys. So appreciate your hard work. Tell us about your background and how you got into this position and [01:36 inaudible] industry.
Frank Bowman: Well, sure. Happy to Ferd, and my background is really construction and engineering. You know, I was in the commercial construction world for about 25 years. I’m here in Springfield, the Springfield area where we have a farm. And you know, when the economy kind of died off there, I was looking for something else to do. And I kind of ran across this organization. Actually, I should say they kind of ran across me. And we got together and you know, we sat down and I’ve been around construction and regulatory environments for a long time. Because I also spent about four years as a county planner and ran the building of zoning department out in a rural county, out in Colorado. So, you know, I’ve got a pretty well-rounded background with zoning, engineering. It’s kind of a natural fit, but when they sat me down and they asked me, well, what do you know about manufactured housing? I had to honestly ask them, I said, what is it? Cause it wasn’t my background, not from the industry, but I’ve learned you know, over the last, when we started about 2014. So it’s been a year or two. And it does take a little while to learn all the ins and outs. You know, Illinois is kind of a strange animal as you well know. It’s even though the HUD code housing is supposed to be uniform across all 50 states, you know the regulations are not. And you know, I get calls all the time from owners, new investors, you know, we’re seeing a lot of new investment interests in Illinois and I get a lot of questions, you know, people trying to do their due diligence. They’re trying to learn about utilities, they are trying to learn about zoning. They’re trying to learn about the regulatory environment, you know, the ever looming threat of rent control that we’re facing pretty much across the nation now. You know, the HUD installation standards you know, they’re the same in all 50 states. But we’re seeing them being enforced in Illinois and 13 other states. So those of you that operate in some states that may have let’s say lack enforcement, but they’re just not, they’re just not following through with the letter of the law. Like they are here with the HUD 309 inspections and, you know, it is just a lot of different things like that, that kind of set Illinois apart Ferd. So you know, we kind of are the go-to place for that. You know, they come to the association and if I don’t know an answer, I can typically find an answer because our board of directors has amongst them, you know, close to a century of knowledge in the industry. And so, you know, we can usually find the answer to the most questions.
Ferd Niemann: No, that’s great. Yeah. You guys definitely been helpful. Yeah, Illinois, it’s a mixed bag. It’s where I grew up and I still have property there, still have parks there. I have family members there, but I know, and I sold one of my parks a year or two ago. I told the broker all the numbers and all the data, and he’s a broker out of Chicago and I was interviewing and he’s like, yeah, here’s what I think it’s worth. And I said, it’s in this town in Illinois. And he goes, oh, I have trouble selling deals in my own state because of the tax environment and the regulatory environment, because Governor Pritzker there’s not a tax he doesn’t like, and he’s raised, I don’t know how many now it’s over, I think over a hundred taxes went up on new year’s day, like a year ago. And that made it a lot harder for me to sell the park, but overall, Illinois is a nice place to live, you know, like nice small towns and nice, you know lots of nice places to live there. So we’ve done well there, but do you get a lot of grief of that sort from out-of-state investors and owners? They say, oh, here we go. You know, I don’t want to, cause, but when I was trying to sell that park, the broker told me I got to knock 90% of my buyers off the list. And that was about two years ago. So maybe now the industry has gotten so much hotter that more people are looking at Illinois, but it was kind of disappointing to hear right out of the gate that a lot of people just won’t even touch Illinois. And I have done well in Illinois.
Frank Bowman: Well, and there’s a lot of long time owners who are selling that parks in Illinois for that very reason. But you know, the pricing is attractive. I see, most of the phone calls are coming from Colorado and California, Maryland, you know, we see folks coming in from the coast really where, you know the, the cost per pad, if you will, is so extraordinarily high, when they run across a park for sale in Illinois, it seems like a value, bargain to them. So, you know, a lot of them are like, I get the calls. I say, you know, they say, hi, I’m from California. And I’m looking to buy my first Illinois park. And I go, oh boy. You know because it’s a learning experience, you know, they call with all the questions, which is what we’re here for to help answer those questions. So, yeah, we’ve been seeing a lot of that. You know, almost all the, and this is not just Illinois, but all the let’s call them institutional or investment grade communities have pretty much been acquired by the bigger operators. We’re seeing guys coming in now looking at 50, 60 pad sites from out of state, you know, and those kind of, as you know, those kinds of parks are kind of hard to manage from a distance. And there’s just a lot to learn. You know, some of the biggest questions we’re seeing nowadays Ferd is infrastructure and utilities, utility billings, you know, our governor just keeps perpetuating this eviction moratorium along with his, the federal government, you know, it just kind of they’re in lockstep. So if the feds extended it, he extends it. And he extends it every month on a Friday afternoon late. So that it misses the news cycle. I mean, they know what they’re doing.
Ferd Niemann: It’s funny. He does it like here you go, he’s going to do it today at six o’clock and well, one thing I didn’t like about Illinois evictions too is, it wasn’t just for CDC guidelines and it wasn’t just for nonpayment items. They are like, Nope, you can’t be evict anything. I mean, you could drive down the park and shoot people and they had restrictions on that for a while.
Frank Bowman: Well, you’re supposed to, but you know, that’s in there, but you can’t find a county sheriff cause that’s actually in the bill that the sheriff will not evict anybody. So it’s kind of a funny situation. We’re hoping that that resolves itself soon, but you know, the manufactured home communities are doing a lot better than the people I talked to in the apartment business or the single family housing business, you know, because a lot of these people own their homes. So they’re trying harder to make the rent payments.
Ferd Niemann: Absolutely. And that’s one of the keys of the asset class, right? You’ve got some, you got to stakeholder with your tenant, right? There’s like, they want to be there, you want to be there, it’s a win-win versus apartment, I want to be here and not have to pay, I don’t care. I’ll just wait it out. What are you going to do? You are going to kick me out two years from now? Versus homeowner, what are you going to do two years from now. I’m going to lean your house, or you have nowhere else to go. So it’s more lockstep and that’s kind of, obviously that’s something that’s industry wide, all states for the most part evictions, for the most part just the stickiness of tenant owned homes. What are some things in Illinois that if you’re trying to generate business, I know you’re not in the economic development department, but if you were like, what are some of the things that makes Illinois better and then what are some of the key ones that may makes it worse?
Frank Bowman: Well, you know, in certain parts of Illinois, there are jobs. So from community operator standpoint, you find a workforce or the needs to the housing that you provide. So, there’s a definite need in certain areas. You start getting into, you know, the Southern parts of the state and the land home deal for retailers is really that’s their niche, because there aren’t people who build homes anymore. There’s just a lack of tradesmen out there. So you know, all the retirees coming out of the cities that are moving to the Southern parts of the state you know, most of them were getting manufacturer modular homes, factory built homes. Talk to a few today that are looking for installers. They’ve got a home coming in. And one guy today, his installation crew came down with COVID. So he’s got the home being delivered and he doesn’t have a crew. So he’s like [10:18 inaudible] to try to find somebody to fill in. So it’s an interesting time, but as you know growing up in Illinois, it’s a very wholesome place. It’s you know, most of the state is you don’t have to worry about getting shot at, drive by shootings. I mean, there are pockets, you know, like Chicago, but we’re so far removed from Chicago for the most part that you know, there’s a lot of quality of life issues that are pretty good.
Ferd Niemann: I remember one of my high school football teammates, he had some rental houses and he was mad because somebody stole his truck and we’re like, well, where was your truck? He’s like, well, his parents live on a busy street. He was, I was sitting with my parents. It was in my parents’ driveway. I had the keys in it and I had my rental keys on the seat. So now I got to go change all the locks on my houses cause they got the addresses on all of them. But it was the surprise that someone in this town stole your vehicle, you know, or I grew up in Illinois, but I went to college in Kansas city and went in a rougher neighborhood, Jesuit school is in a rough neighborhood. You wouldn’t think twice about not locking your car or locking your door, but back in Quincy, it was like, yeah, I don’t think my parents locked our front door for a years. I mean, that is just the way it was.
So it was a nice place to grow up. Nice place for, you know, affordable housing and a lot of places, if you’re right, if there’s the jobs and the further downstate you get, the tougher it is for employment typically.
Frank Bowman: But there are pockets and there are new areas that are trying to grow. One of the issues that we’ve been working with some mayors and city councils on are discriminatory zoning practices trying to allow manufactured, modular homes to compete in their cities for particularly urban redevelopment, you know those narrow urban lots that they’re striving to get homes, all these lots to house the workers that they’re trying to attract. And yet they have no builders who are willing to build for that 150,000 and under price tag. Well, we own that space, you know, but they have ordinances prohibiting, but they call in a lot of cases relocatable housing coming in. So you know, we’re working on that. As are most states right now trying to, to work through some of that old stigma, you know, still the baggage that the industry still carries around with it. So that, and trying to really push the Greenfield developments, the new communities.
Ferd Niemann: Are you having any luck on new communities? I mean, I know the places you want to build are the places don’t want to let you. And the places that don’t care are the places you don’t want to build.
Frank Bowman: You have a lot of luck. I actually helped get two brand new communities through county planning commissions, with unanimous approvals in the past year, year, and a half. Now, but when I got to the elected city board, or the county board, and the NIMBYs came out of the woodwork, the elected officials shot them both down, even though the planning commissions recognized, we need this in our community. That’s real tough pressure to overcome.
Ferd Niemann: Yeah, I just got approval for the expansion of a park in Illinois, but I kind of got somewhat lucky that it was in the county and not in the city. And this county had no zoning code. So I was able to develop it in that county, but I was literally on the city boundary. So I was able to get city, water, city sewer. I had to go through the state to get my stormwater permit and my sanitary permit, which is still kind of a pain, but at least it got rid of the political nature of it. It was just the bureaucracy without having to go through the county commissioners or any sort of other agency like that. So I know that can be a regulatory hurdle. What other role do you play in organizations like in the regulatory game and or what kind of tips or tricks can you give our audience for navigating that? I mean, obviously going through development approvals is a whole another skill set and regulatory process, but just in general with, you know, whether you’re sub-metering your water, whether you’re bringing in HUD sets, I know you and I talked previously about soil composition for purposes of whether or not you should even, you know, consider using peer pads versus concrete piers or runners, because in states, the used homes are not really regulated by HUD or other routes it’s supposed to be. But there’s no inspection mechanism versus like where I’m in Missouri, they inspect new homes. The state tells you, we don’t even look at used homes, so do what you want, but you’re not supposed to, but do what you want.
Frank Bowman: Well, and that’s true, even here in Illinois. You know, everybody’s looking for used homes for that very reason, because, you know, they think they can get away with something and maybe they can, maybe they can’t. You know, then a lot of that’s because the local building officials aren’t paying attention either, not just the state, but the local building officials. But you know, you talk about infrastructure, you know, and again, this is a nationwide issue where most of these parks are now 60, 70 years old, and the infrastructure won’t last forever, you know, so we’re starting to see some issues crop up there with, you know, replacement of infrastructure. A lot of, you know, private Wells on a lot of these rural properties, you know, people want to sub meter because the Wells only have a finite amount of water in them. And you’ve got residents that leave their hoses running, you know, all the time. Well doesn’t last very long. It won’t last all summer, especially as it’s drying up. And we’re seeing a lot of that now out west. Wells are just drying up and there are no alternatives. So when you have city water and city utilities, that’s really a benefit that we could say. You know, the HUD set, these are system built homes, you know, you’re supposed to put in a foundation that works with the system as designed and approved by the manufacturer. And that’s really all I was looking for, you know, but you alluded to the soils and soils is a science really that most community operators don’t pay enough attention to. Because the soil is a thing that underlies your real estate investment. And with bad soils, you know, your costs go through the roof. There was one operator that came in from out of state bought a few communities, but one of them they bought was in an area where the soil was actually classified as muck, by from an engineering standpoint and the other is a community that had successfully held homes all be it lighter homes for, you know, 60, 70 years. But when they asked me to look at the real estate, the soils with them, we did, it’s fairly simple to do you, you USDA maintains a website where you can do a quick check to see what you’re getting involved in. But they couldn’t support anything on that site without significant engineering. So bringing a new homes and heavier homes with drywall and shingle roofs was out of the question for that community.
Ferd Niemann: That’s crazy. I mean, that’s something that you don’t see on your average due diligence list as looking at the soil. I had not thought of it. So you are one ahead of me, but I mean, when you look at used homes just to clarify for the audience, you know, on a new home, on a HUD set, typically you’re going to have either a concrete perimeter or concrete kind of, I’m drawing a blank on the names, not runners, not peers, pad, you can do runners or pads or peers, obviously going to pad. Typically have a pad, or you have runners running the length of the I-beams underneath the dorm, or you have concrete piers, which are typically two feet wide by two feet wide by anywhere from 32 inches to 40, depending on the frost line, the frost line. But in used homes, they say, well, you don’t have to do that as if a used home is not going to be impacted by the Frostline. So what a lot of people do is they just put them on these little pier pads, which are just basically four inch thick plastic boxes in their teeth, right. Compared to drilling concrete and putting in $3000 of concrete for a home. So those can work, and, you know, some professionals use those all the time. They must work, but you made the good point to, well, depends on your soil, you know, and if you got bad soil, that home is going to shift a ton, that Home is going to sink. And, you know, that’s where the proper infrastructure to concrete works. That’s where you may not even be able to put in your home at all. So I think that’s a good point to, you know, just kind of add that into the decision [19:12 inaudible].
Frank Bowman: Well, [19:13 inaudible] is a big problem all across Illinois, but you can get into places like Northern Michigan that are Sandy soils, that are not frost susceptible, and you can do that directly on the soil. But you know, you get in the Northern Illinois area where they’ve got frost at 40 inches deep, and you’re going to either, you’re going to have to stop that frost movement somehow to keep the home from moving, you know, as the ground freezes, you know, a lot of those resident cause problems with, talk about soil. So soil moisture, you know, they put in landscape beds or something that traps the moisture underneath the home, right? These homes are designed to be dry underneath, but yet something that holds the water underneath there, and then it freezes and buckles and some pops, or, you know, some of them go, oh yeah, I got to, get under loosen those tie-down straps every winter before the horse starts freezing, Then their doors don’t close right.
Ferd Niemann: That’s the biggest complaint we get even on homes that are properly set, it’s like the door moves and we’ve call the installer, get your butt back out of here. You didn’t put it on right. And he says, call me in six months. And the resident is pissed. Like, no, I just bought this house two days ago, the door doesn’t shut right. And they called, we asked a different guy. This lady hired a third party out of her nickel and she’s like, get out here and fix his door. And the guy said, call me in six months because the first six months the house is moving around, I was like, they don’t really disclose that very well, but that’s how it works sometimes. And people, yeah, I get it. Your door doesn’t close straight. It is a brand new house, you’re mad. It’s like the home’s going to settle on that earth. That earth is not had 6,000 pounds sitting right there for a while.
Frank Bowman: That’s exactly right. Yep. And that’s you know, one of the reasons that the HUD code is the HUD code. You know, it’s the way and the manufacturers devise the foundations you know, so even talking with the engineers at the manufacturing plants when I asked them, I say, well, so you’ve got a used home. You know, one that the installation manual is missing. Nobody knows where it is. And you know, the old ones, there’s no library of those anymore since Minnesota pulled them down, what do you do? You know, he said, they say, just use the current manual. It’s the same, you know, the requirements from the manufacturers are still the same new or used.
Ferd Niemann: Right. And that’s what always baffling to me, is it’s like, oh, this home has been, somebody else bought it two years ago. Now I moved it. I don’t have to set it up right. It’s like, if it works for one, it works for the other. But I mean, but I get why people want to do used homes and want a used set up is because of the cost, because there’s a limited number of people who are competent to put in concrete in HUD conditions. And there’s a limited where people who are licensed install them and they know that. And guess what the price? I mean, if I was one of three lawyers in the country, you think my hourly rate would be the same? No, it’d be higher, a lot higher. So in the Kansas city, Metro, there are three guys that are installing a thousand homes this year. Guess what the price is, it’s higher. And it’s a dirty job. It’s a hard job. It’s 105 degrees.
Frank Bowman: It’s harder to attract new people into the industry. You know, young people these days. I mean, they could write their own paychecks. There’s enough work out there that, you know, they could, as hard as they want to work, they can make as much money as they want. But they’re therein lies, the rub, you know, it’s hard to get young people who want to come out and do that.
Ferd Niemann: Yeah. Just doing this and that. We see that a lot with you know, labor jobs, and even skilled labor, like electricians, plumbers, you got people don’t want to do it. And the concrete guy I use here, he’s got a good crew. And they’re always on time and they’re polite. They don’t take smoke breaks and they’re swinging the sledge. Knocking those concrete, working hard all the time. I said, how do you find such good crews? He said, my starting pays $25 an hour. I said, for unskilled guy straight out of jail, you know, $25 an hour is a lot of money, but he’s like, you got to work hard. He is like I burn through guys, but the ones that stick around, they know they can’t get $25 an hour at McDonald’s and they can’t get a job as an accountant or an engineer. And they’re not skilled labor, like an electrician or a carpenter. So swinging a hammer for $25 an hour gives you big muscles. It’s tough on your back, but it’s good money, you know?
Frank Bowman: Absolutely. Yeah. And they can make money, but it’s hard to get them attract, you know, to attract them in here. So you know, we’re trying to work with some of the community college trade programs to at least come in and expose them to, maybe this is an option that’s available to you out there to, to look at maybe home installation as a part of what you do going forward coming out of these straight programs.
Ferd Niemann: That’s a great idea. I mean, yeah, we used to work on some stuff with junior colleges trying to get them to take on, you know, even just create skilled factory laborers, you know, learn how to use the machines and robots. Like that was the big, I used to be an economic development here in Jackson county. And that was the biggest [24:20 inaudible] employers had was skilled workplace, skilled workforce. Like we need people who can do $20 jobs. Everybody wants a $50 job, but it has a $10 skillset. There’s a disconnect, right? We need somebody that, you know, wants to work.
Frank Bowman: Absolutely. And you know, you mentioned briefly early on about abandoned homes, you know, that’s always another issue. And really the reason they come to abandoned is because the management of the community has failed to do their paperwork. You know, they failed to track ownership and it just gets away from them. So, you know, a lot of folks are coming in and buying these older communities down and trying to clean them up and they can’t prove possession for these homes. So, you know, that’s one of the topics we’re going to talk about at our annual conference coming up Ferd. So, you know, we’re going to talk about installations. You know, what’s up with installations, we’re going to talk about abandoned homes. We’re going to talk about the unique if you will lease requirements in Illinois. We’ve got an attorney going to join us to talk about that. We’re going to talk about the current status of the evictions. We’re going to talk about water utilities, utility billing and infrastructure improvements. You know, kind of all the things that we’ve been talking about, we’re going to touch on it at our annual meeting. So it’ll be on September 16 in Oak Brook, Illinois. It’d be a great opportunity, not only to meet others in the industry, but to get your questions answered, especially if you’re a new investor coming into Illinois or looking at Illinois as a possibility, it would be a great place to get the best information, the most current information available.
Ferd Niemann: That sounds good. Like I told you earlier, I’m going to try to make it either, If I can’t get there, maybe I’ll get my dad over there. I know he went to the last one. I didn’t make it, but he said it was a great program and we get your emails on a regular basis. I even open some of them. You can verify, you’ll call me out on it cause you track that stuff. But definitely Illinois has been good, we still own four or five parking Illinois right now. So I’ve sold three or four in Illinois. It’s generally a little easier to get in than other states because there’s some people don’t want to do. It’s harder to get out. But if you’re going to buy a whole life, I’ve had good luck there. The key is finding, you know, the places that have the good workforce jobs because otherwise, you know, really for labor, right? We had that park in Southern Illinois and I went through probably 20 contractors, even general contractors didn’t want to work. They’d come visit. They’ll say I’ll bid, they’ll take measurements. So we’ll give you 10 houses in a row if you know, give us a reasonable bid. I’m excited. I got three crews. I got this, no bid, never called back. Just ghost us, the next guy, same thing. Next case, next guy works two days and disappears. Next guy works a week, steals your supplies, and never comes back. We had a heck of a time, but that’s just was one town, other towns is not as big a problem.
Frank Bowman: I’ve been trying to find a plumber and I can’t even get him to return my phone calls.
Ferd Niemann: It’s crazy. Isn’t it?
Frank Bowman: It’s some crazy times, but yeah, but you know, that’s pretty much what we do in Illinois. All the state associations give a plug for the state associations, no matter what state you’re in we all basically do the same kind of work, the regulatory environment, the you know, we’re staying in real close contact with all the key legislators and key regulators that monitor this industry. And you know, we participate in the legislative process. One of the things that we’re have a very strong program here in Illinois is with our PAC you know, the political action committee because you have to participate and that means, you know, the PAC channels campaign contributions to legislators and city officials on an as needed kind of basis to protect your investments. You know, it’s really, it’s like an insurance policy for underlying your investments in whatever state you’re in. But it’s a very important part of what the association does for you, their legislative agenda, on top of [28:44 inaudible] regulations.
Ferd Niemann: No, I agree, blocks and the legislation, I know you guys are actively involved and they had a lot to do with modifying the [28:49 inaudible] housing act a couple years ago and all that. It’s a little as a business owner, It’s a little annoying that the pack is necessary. Like, why do we need the money to give, to politicians, to get them, to listen to our issues? It’s like, but that’s unfortunately, that’s Chicago politics. That’s how it is. I mean, but you do a great job, Frank, you’re given too much credit to your peers in other states, when you say we all do the same thing, because I’m a member of like 17 states that I say about a dozen of them. All they do is have a golf tournament once a year. So you’re doing above and beyond, and I appreciate it.
Frank Bowman: Happy to be able to help out.
Ferd Niemann: All right, thanks, Frank. Appreciate it. Where can people reach out to you email or website?
Frank Bowman: The website www.Iamha.org will take you everywhere. It’ll get you to the contact form. So it’ll get you most of the information you need. You know, we do keep a very significant library of resources for community owners and retailers behind the members only firewall. You know, you can’t give everything away for free.
Ferd Niemann: I know, I know, I know I’m the same way, but your fees are reasonable though. What is it? 150 bucks, a couple hundred bucks to be a member.
Frank Bowman: Yeah. Community start off at 195. But they’re scalable, you know, so you look to the bigger operators to help shoulder a bigger part of the burden. For professionals contractors, professionals like yourself, suppliers, a flat fee of 365 a year. It’s cheaper than a yellow page ad. And it’s going to get you a lot further too.
Ferd Niemann: Oh yeah. It’s been great. All right, Frank, IHMA.
Frank Bowman: no, www.Imha.org.
Ferd Niemann: I should know that IMHA. I see it all the time. Www.Imha.Org. All right. All right, Frank. Thanks again.
Frank Bowman: You bet. Thank you Ferd.
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